This presentation will be a personal reflexive dialogue between two senior leaders in a social care setting, responsible for creating and sustaining systemic transformational practice. The presenters will discuss their dialogical stances and approaches to talking about racism in a local authority context. Drawing upon their experiences of service development, service delivery and organisational change, they will consider how critical moments in an organisations journey creates episodes that can lead to failure or success. Principles of CMM will be the epistemological framework in which this dialogue takes place. How can one, hold onto these ideas in the context of risks, powerlessness and racial injustice?